Tories tell Labour MPs to ‘look to your conscience’ in vote on winter fuel payments – UK politics live

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Liz Kendall, the work and pensions secretary, is now winding up the debate.

After praising the contributions from Labour MPs in the debate, she starts by explaining why the government is doing this. It is because it must “fix the foundations” of the economy, prioritising help for those who need it most, she says.

The Tories left a £22bn hole in the public finances in the current financial years, she says.

She cites the Treasury figures used to calculate this sum.

In response to an intervention from a Labour MP about what it being done to increase the take-up of pension credit, Kendall attacks “the faux outrage” of Tory MPs complaining about take-up rates.

Harriet Baldwin (Con) asks Kendall to confirm that, if all people eligible claim pension credit, that would cost more than the money saved from the cut.

Kendall ignores the question, but instead asks if that was why the Tories did so litte on pension credit.

(The answer is – Baldwin was right, means-testing the winter fuel payments with 100% pension credit take-up would be more expensive for the Treasury than the status quo, not cheaper.)

John McDonnell, a former Labour shadow chancellor who is currently suspended for voting against the party on the king’s speech, says the government says those with the broadest shoulders should contribute the most. But the poorest are being hit hardest, he says.

He says cutting the winter fuel payment is a misjudgment. It “certainly flies against everything I believe in as a labor MP about tackling inequality and poverty within our society”, he says. He says he does not want to support a motion put forward by “these characters” (the Tories). But it is the only option he has, he says.

Saqib Bhatti (Con) accuses Labour of using pensioners as a political tool.

The government should have carried out an impact assessment, he says. He says Labour’s own research (from 2017) suggests 4,000 pensioners are at risk of death.

Labour’s Neil Duncan-Jordan is speaking now.

He tabled the Commons early day motion signed by 47 MPs (19 of them Labour) urging the government to delay the cut. Before becoming an MP, he worked as a campaigner for pensioners for almost 20 years.

He urges ministers to shelve the cut, and to set up a task force to look at pensioner poverty.

Kirsty Blackman from the SNP says Anas Sarwar, the Scottish Labour leader, promised no austerity under Labour at the election. So Scottish Labour MPs cannot support this measure, she says.

Rachael Maskell (Lab) is speaking now. She has said she will abstain because she cannot support the measure.

Maskell says, although she cannot support the government, she wants to work with ministers to find a better approach. She says the government should shelve the cut until it has a better solution.

Caroline Johnson (Con) says ministers must understand the consequences of what they are doing. If they take support away from elderly people in winter, some of them will die.

Johnson, who is a doctor, talks about the medical process by which this happens. When people get cold, blood pressure can go up, increasing the risk of stroke or heart attack. Lungs can become inflamed. And there is more risk of pneumonia and chest infection, she says.

She says old people are also more likely to fall when they are cold. There is plenty of medical evidence that proves this, she says.

Andy MacNae (Lab) says successive governments have ducked the problem of pensioner poverty. The winter fuel payments was poorly targeted, he says. A better approach is needed. And he claims that is what this government is committed to.

Esther McVey, a Conservative former work and pensions secretary, says that this is a “cruel policy” and that the government is out of touch.

Welfare changes like this should normally be scrutinised by the independent Social Security Advisory Committee, she says. The government has used an emergency provision to avoid this, she says. She says that could be seen as “evading scrutiny”.

She goes on:

This is good, old-fashioned pork barrel politics, taking money away from the people that the chancellor thinks don’t vote Labour, like pensioners, to hand to people that they think do vote Labour, train drivers, public sector worker …

Labour has basically declared war on pensioners, which will neither be forgotten or forgiven.

Anna Dixon (Lab) says ultimate responsibility for this rests with the Tories. They were pursuing ursuing “a scorched earth policy”, with “the NHS running on empty”, she says.

She says she knows there are pensioners who risk being left in the cold this winter as a result. She urges MPs to encourage people to apply for pension credit if they qualify.

And she says, because the NHS is in crisis as a direct result of what the Tories did, the Department of Health and Social Care should ensure proper winter planning is in place.

Judith Cummins, the deputy speaker, says she is imposing a three-minute limit on speeches now.

Wendy Chamberlain, the Lib Dem welfare spokesperson, says this decision is simply wrong.

Nobody is disputing that years of Conservative mismanagement have left the public finances in crisis. But this cut is simply wrong. It is wrong to strip support for many of the poorest pensioners just as energy bills are set to rise again. It is wrong to force vulnerable elderly people to make that choice between heating and eating this winter, and it is the wrong answer to the challenges that we face.

She says the Lib Dems will be voting with the opposition on this.

Debbie Abrahams is the first Labour speaker to express concern about the policy. She says there are many pensioners in poverty who do not quality for pension credit and so will not keep the winter fuel payment.

She says she would like ministers to consider how the means-testing could be made more generous, or what else could be done to raise the £1.4bn needed. “Please, we must protect our most vulnerable citizens,” she says.

Edward Leigh (Con), the father of the house, is speaking now.

He says he would welcome a debate about the case for changing welfare arrangements for pensioners. He says in the past he questioned some aspects of the triple lock. If welfare payments to pensioners just keep going up, he says, “that is the way, ultimately, to bankrupt the country”.

But Leigh says this debate is different. He goes on:

We are debating the action of a government which has not just gone against a manifesto commitment. There was no manifesto commitment to do this. They actually gave a specific promise that they would not do this. And this surely is a question of public trust … and this is why I think people are so upset.

(This is not strictly true; during the election Labour implied they would not change or means-test the winter fuel payment, but they were very careful not to make an explicit commitment on this.)

He says this is about Labour delivering a “punishment beating” to pensioners. He suggests the Labour claim about there being a £22bn black hole in the budget is bogus, and he said the government decided to deliver “a punishment beating” to make its case.

Meg Hillier, the Labour MP who has just been re-elected unopposed as chair of the Treasury committee, is the first Labour speaker. She is talking about the general funding crisis facing the government, and says she will vote for the cuts on the basis that the government needs to raise extra money.

(Normally the minister speaks at the start of a debate, but the procedure is different in debates on secondary legislation and Liz Kendall, the work and pensions secretary, is going to speak at the end.)

Shadow DWP secretary Mel Stride urges Labour MPs to 'look to your conscience' and vote against winter fuel payments cut

Mel Stride, the shadow work and pensions secretary, is opening the debate.

He started by suggesting that the government did not tell the truth about its plans at the election.

He said the Conservatives stand “full square behind our elderly”.

But Labour is means-testing the winter fuel payment, despite saying during the election campaign they had no plans to change it, he said.

Under the plan, nine out of 10 pensioners would lose up to £300, he said. He accused Labour of suggesting only the wealthy would be affected. But two thirds of pensioners living below the poverty line would lose the money, he said, and there are 880,000 pensions eligible for pension credit who do not get it, he said.

He said the only report into this proposal has come from a Lords committee on secondary legislation. That report says:

We are unconvinced by the reasons given for the urgency attached to laying these regulations and are particularly concerned that this both precludes appropriate scrutiny and creates issues with the practicalities of bringing in the change at short notice.

And he ended by urging Labour MPs to look to their conscience. He said:

Can I … make an impassioned plea to those sitting opposite. Look to your conscience. These measures, you know in your heart that these measures are wrong. You know in your heart that [Labour] has broken their promises and that these measures are going to lead to untold hardship for millions of elderly and vulnerable people right up and down this country.

You now have an opportunity to join with us and put a stop to it.

MPs debate means-testing winter fuel payments

In the Commons MPs are now starting the debate on means-testing the winter fuel payments.

The government is implementing this measure via a piece of secondary legislation (the social fund winter fuel payment regulations 2024). Normally secondary legislation like this does not get debated in the Commons because it can become law without a vote.

But the Conservatives tabled a motion “praying” against the regulation (a mechanism to register their opposition) and the government scheduled a vote (which it did not need to).

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